Introduction 

You’re listening to QATalks, a podcast for IT executives leading digital transformation within their organizations. In this show, we hear from leaders leveraging the latest technologies like AI, IoT, & machine learning, as they navigate the changing tech landscape to position their organizations for the future. Let’s get into the show.  

Logan: Welcome back to QATalks. I’m your host for today’s episode, Logan Lyles with Sweet Fish Media. We are joined today by a repeat guest, a Cigniti speaker. Our featured guest today is Martha Heller. She’s the CEO over at Heller Search Associates. Martha and Cigniti speaker, welcome to the show! How are you both doing today? 

Martha: Doing well Logan! It’s very nice to be here. 

Cigniti speaker: Doing great Logan! Thank you so much for having us here. 

Logan: I really appreciate both of you making time. I know you’re both busy executives, not quite traveling as much these days as you both were used to. On that note, speaking of some of the other things that both of you have been involved in, I wanted to kick off the conversation with a little bit of background and context for listeners.  

First for Martha; Martha Heller is one of the most widely followed voices on the role of the CIO, one of our primary topics here today. She has been a CIO.com contributor since 1999 and was founder of the CIO Executive Council IDG’s Professional Organization for CIOs. Martha has written two books on IT Leadership – ‘CIO Paradox: Battling the Contradictions of IT Leadership’ and ‘Be the Business: CIOs in the new era of IT’. Martha is CEO of Heller Search Associates, an executive recruiting firm that specializes in technology leadership positions nationwide across all industries. Through all of these platforms, Martha has built a large, intellectually engaged network of technology executives, many of whom contribute to her widely read newsletter at the Heller report. Target Research recently named Martha as a top influencer of US based CIOs. And Martha, I think a lot of that experience is going to come to bear, add a lot of value to our listeners today in IT leadership in a lot of different roles, as we talk about the changing roles and priorities for IT leaders.  

Cigniti speaker has been a regular speaker here on the show. He is an industry leader in software testing with over 20 years of experience and an award winning CIO as well.  

Martha, I want to kick it over to you. As we mentioned a little bit, you’ve been writing and speaking about the CIO role for some time. You’ve been interviewing CIOs and placed many in their jobs as well. As I mentioned at the top of the show, the pandemic has obviously affected travel for folks like you and Cigniti speaker. More importantly, today, it has affected the CIO role. What do you think are some of the immediate impacts, as you talk to your network of CIOs, that they’re seeing in the changes to their roles since the pandemic really set in early spring this year? 

Martha: Sure thing Logan, thank you! Right after the pandemic really hit in March, I spent quite a bit of time, maybe two months, doing what I called a listening tour where I spoke to CIOs, mostly Fortune 500 companies across a very broad range of industries, just trying to get a handle on what’s going on out there regarding CIO response to the pandemic. For the first several months, it was all about getting the workforce to work remotely. Then there are security implications, disaster recovery, education, and rolling out collaboration technologies. So that was a huge effort and that was really what I would call the first phase of CIO priority, probably from mid-March to May. It was just about getting these remote environments up and running.  

But then what quickly emerged were two additional areas. One is when companies all of the sudden, because of just a tremendous event that no one was anticipating, have to completely shift their distribution channels or markets. For example, take a wine and spirits company. They needed to shift from their commercial outlets, whether those were cruises or hotels, to suddenly retail. All the mom and pops suddenly have lines outside their door for people who want to come in and buy those products. And so the focus for CIOs became analytics. Do we have the analytics to understand our supply chain, to understand our markets, to be able to pivot? The watchword became pivot. We pivoted our workforce to a remote environment. That was the pivot number one.  

Pivot number two was do we have the analytics to really change our business model, change our channels, change our markets, because the world is changing. That was the second piece.  

And the third piece is digital. Every CIO has a digital agenda developed in collaboration with all sorts of critical executives and working along on that digital agenda as much as the board and the CEO will approve those investments. Along comes Covid and it’s about an acceleration of a digital agenda. So just as an example here, Rich Gilbert is the CIO of AFLAC, the insurance products provider. And for the longest time he had had a digital agenda. He said we’re going to digitize these products and the executive committee said fine you can make it digital, but our product is really sold on site through a handshake because that relationship is important. Well, no one’s shaking any hands right now! So the CEO of AFLAC said to Rich, Okay you want digital, you got it. Let’s put some fire behind that digital products agenda.  

For a long time now, of course, CIOs have been accountable for workplace productivity, for analytics and for digital. I would say, that hasn’t changed, it’s just a catalyst, an accelerator to every one of those areas. And the last thing that I will say on that is my caution to the CIO community has been, “It’s great that you got everybody remote, that was a huge feat of strength, very difficult to do and you should be very proud of yourself. But don’t regress. Don’t become a technical support office now because IT has moved past that long ago. It is all about revenue, analytics, digital, and the customer. So it’s great that you’ve got everybody into remote that was critically important to the company. But you’re not a remote services organization, you’re an innovation organization and a delivery organization. It’s time to move past being very proud of the remote work and now make sure we’re focused on analytics and digital” 

Logan: Martha, I think listeners just stopped right now, they have been delivered with a ton of value already today, and you really broke down three key areas that changed for the CIO already. I love your word of caution to IT leaders, not to just rest on their laurels, like that was a lot of work and we need to sit back and relax. Because as you point out, there is a potential pitfall of regressing and stepping backwards, just becoming that remote service organization and not really serving the business outcomes that the IT function has come to impact more in recent years.  

Speaking of changes in recent years, Cigniti speaker, software quality has become more a part of the boardroom discussion in recent years. Can you speak a little bit to where that is fitting into these other changes with the CIO role? As Martha has talked about supporting a remote workforce, leveraging analytics to change the business model, and acceleration of the digital agenda are three big ones. Software quality is probably playing into this as well. Can you speak to that today? 

Cigniti speaker: Absolutely! Those are great pivot points that Martha has mentioned about analytics, digital, and a remote workforce. All of this comes up with two major challenges for the CIOs. One is how do they ensure the cybersecurity, the testing of those environments in remote conditions without compromising security standards? Here comes in the quality assurance of those applications to make sure that cybersecurity and the application is well protected. The second is about the automation of it. They want more of digital delivered to their end-customer much faster without any manual intervention. A lot of shift left that have happened in order for them to automate the upfront of the lifecycle. So they want the requirements being thoroughly tested, automated, and the design automation of it. And they want to see a lot of the digital to be deployed into multiple systems like it could be on multiple browsers, technologies, multiple platforms, multiple devices and that brings in the complexity of ensuring the product quality and the brand is protected.  

So, quality assurance becomes a top priority for CIOs in two areas. One is to make sure that automation is successful for them, and the second is about the cyber security or the security aspect of those applications. These are the two top priorities for the CIOs in this new world of digital. 

Logan: Cigniti speaker, that makes a lot of sense. Martha, that’s an interesting segue to what I wanted to ask you next about. As Cigniti speaker talked about two hot button issues, security and automation, there are a lot of emerging trends that fall in those areas from machine learning, AI, IoT, and block chain. And one of the challenges, that was probably already faced by CIOs and maybe even more important in a remote environment for their departments, is up-levelling their teams on some of these emerging trends. So what are you seeing in your CIO community, what leaders are doing to up-level the skills of their teams in some of these key areas that Cigniti speaker talked to a little bit and some of those I listed here? 

Martha: Sure Logan, you’re right. It doesn’t matter what technology it is and it doesn’t matter what year it is, CIOs always have at the top of their list challenges such as talent development or talent acquisition. This is no different and so the kinds of approaches that CIOs are taking to make sure they’ve got the right skills are staff augmentation through outsourcers, much tighter partnerships with vendors, where we think of vendors less as people who are holding their feet to the fire and they’ve got to deliver on their SLAs but more the extended part of our team where we’re really connected in terms of each other’s success, motivated by each other’s success, and also partnerships with universities. All of the tried and true things – making sure that the candidate experience during recruiting is a very positive one. So those are all just the normal things CIOs need to do to make sure that their teams are populated with the people who have got the right technical skills, whether that’s IoT, or AI, or RPA, or anything else. What I think very interesting going on regarding staffing, talent, and organizational design is what I will broadly call the democratization of IT, that’s what a lot of big company CIOs are focused on. When you think about it, I brought up AFLAC, so is AFLAC an insurance company or a technology company or is a retail company? Be it an insurance company or a technology company, we have started to put IoT and sensors in our electronics products that we’re creating. Then are we an electronics company or are we a data company or are we a technology company? We’re all shifting. We’re all becoming data companies, becoming technology companies in one way or another. And so the notion that all technology resources must report into the CIO must be contained within the IT organization. That’s something I’m starting to see CIOs let go of. For example, when you think about finance, the CFOs, there are all sorts of people in any company who work with finance. They approve budgets, they deal with accounts receivables, they do all this. They’re not necessarily in the finance organization. The finance organization is creating the guardrails and the approaches in the toolkit for everybody else in the company to work with finance in a standardized, effective way. That’s where I see the IT organization moving.  

For example, you talk about RPA. Bonnie Smith, when she was the CIO of Lear Corporation very recently, created a whole RPA self-service model where IT would get the plant managers licensed on their machines, and then it would be the plant managers themselves that would go ahead and design their own RPA tools. And IT organizations have a governance role to play, make sure the guardrails were there, security was there. And now Bonnie and her team, they’re moving on to doing that with data visualization and some workflow management tools.  

One way to solve the staffing crisis is be really good at recruiting, partner with universities, pay well, allow people to work remotely, do the things you’ve always done to bring in good talent. But beyond that, it’s this democratization of IT. If we take the things that IT has always developed and delivered over the walls and we give our business community, our business users, some degree of ability to develop some of those tools themselves, then it allows IT to focus less on that noise and more on some of the architectural elements that only IT can focus on.  

And I’ll bring up one more, which is the notion of product teams, cross-functional nimble teams. So if you’re developing an RPA or an AI pilot, don’t just have your data scientist there, don’t just have your developer there. Have somebody from marketing there, have somebody from operations, have somebody from sales, and develop the technology in an agile way where you’re delivering a bit of value at a time, everybody together that is working on a business/technology solution. It’s not so much IT develops it and delivers it.  

So it’s a little bit of a roundabout way of answering your question. Staffing is hard, it’s always been hard but we always do the things we need to do. But if we can democratize IT and get some of the tried and true things that IT has always done out into the business, where business users help themselves, then you’re going to have a much more focused IT organization that doesn’t have to have every single skill needed in the company within its own walls. 

Logan: I love the way you put that, Martha! The democratization of IT, it reminds me as I talked to a lot of marketing leaders, the way that a lot of companies are moving marketing outside of that functional role. As companies become media companies to create content and marketing becomes more outside the walls of marketing, it seems like that same sort of shift is happening in IT. And you provided a really great example there of finance parallel. The interactions with financial systems and enabling people to work within what finance provides and the guardrails that finance puts up is not just a finance function, it crosses all sorts of business units. So you mentioned for IT leaders to really lean into this democratization of it. They’ve got to loosen the reins a little bit and see what their impact is having outside the walls of their function. But that actually means that their impact is growing.  

So would you say to the IT leaders that sounds a little bit scary,  that sounds like I’m kind of I’m loosening the reins and I don’t know where things are going to go, that it actually is going to serve them better because they’re going to actually have a bigger business impact if they move that direction. 

Martha: It’s a shift, right? It’s a shift from CIOs from being very operational, having huge teams, accountability for everything, to being more focused on architecture, governance, and some of the more guardrail oriented responsibilities for IT, and that is a shift. But it’s within a broader shift.  

So if you think about it, before we even became a country in the United States, we were agrarian economy, farmland everywhere, we were all farmers. And then somewhere in the late 18th, early 19th century, we became an industrial economy. When we were an industrial economy, we had boards of directors and organizational lines around our departments to create specialization and we had moats around our businesses because we want to keep our secret from our competitors and names and think plans, big footprint and expanding footprint. But we’re not the industrial economy anymore, we’re in the digital economy. You could also call it the data economy. The way we operate is very different. So to think that the way we set everything up in the industrial economy is going to make sense going forward, I think is not really thinking things through. 

The CIOs will say, “As we become a technology company, I can have every single resource in the entire business reporting to me but that doesn’t make sense. I need to think through how do we dismantle those silos, how do we create teams where everybody feels that they’re connected in technology development in the business that’s really digital economy organizational design thinking. It does change the emphasis from empire building, big staff, and being accountable for activities that maybe you don’t have direct power over.” That’s a new way of thinking. And it’s a new skillset that CIOs are going to need to develop if they’re going to bring their companies into the height of this new data economy 

Logan: Speaking of impact on things that they don’t have direct control over, but have more of an influence on where the business is going – For some industries, digital transformation is really contributing to revenue growth, especially sectors like retail. As you said earlier, things have shifted completely. What do you think is the primary way that CIOs and CTOs are stepping into the driver’s seat like that conversation you mentioned earlier at AFLAC? How are they having those conversations with the rest of their leadership team and assuming that either driver’s seat role or more of a contribution to the business outcomes, the revenue growth that aren’t typically thought of as an IT function. How are they having those conversations and how are they communicating that to the rest of their leadership team as they make that shift as well as an IT leader? 

Martha: Well, it’s funny Logan. It’s really all over the map. So just as an example, a guy named Jaap van Riel is the CIO of Talbot, it’s a retail company. And they had made a decision that they wanted to hire a head of e-commerce, meaning that P&L responsible for e-commerce revenue, which for retail, especially during COVID, is becoming a greater percentage of their overall revenues. They said to Jaap, the CIO, “Your organization is running great! You’ve given us all the technology that we need. We have faith in you and we now want you to run that P&L.” This is a very clear example of where the CIO is the revenue driver for e-commerce at a retail company. But then I spoke to Jake Fritz, who’s the CIO of Emerson Electronics, and they’re starting to see IoT go into all of their different business lines. And what he’s doing is making it crystal clear that just because technology exists in those business lines does not mean I own that P&L, does not mean that I’m accountable for that revenue. My job is to make sure we’ve got the systems, data, staff, and the delivery software development lifecycle and that we’ve got a robust delivery model. My job is to deliver all of the tools that allow the digital business to grow. But I’m not running the business, I’m supporting the digital business. As an executive committee, they all made that decision.  

So sometimes you’re going to find CIO, who is that product officer as well as has accountability for the revenue of any of those products. And then in some companies, the CIO says, ‘no, my job is to make sure that I’ve got the systems to develop and deliver the products that you need in your business, Mr or Ms P&L Owner, and you’re going to be responsible for the revenue’.  

One way to think about it is every senior executive, whether on the front lines of customers or whether they’re in the back office, is in the driver’s seat with revenue because what they do enables that revenue to grow. And I would say for CIOs, sometimes they’re in a support function. They can be a part of a strategic strategy to determine what products and when, what IoT and what data, and how are we going to turn that into a business model. But sometimes they go ahead and own that P&L. And sometimes they don’t because every company becomes a technology company. So what is the role of the CIO in actively gaining a return on those technology products? That is a big question that executive committees are working out and I would wager will be working out for some time. 

Logan: I think that’s probably a safe bet their Martha and a well-informed one, because you’re having these conversations all the time. As we talk about increasing revenue and the contribution, you did a great job Martha, of laying out for not only the IT leaders, but everyone at the executive level and their contribution to revenue growth.  

Cigniti speaker, I wanted to go back to you. As we open things up about shifts during the pandemic, one thing that we’ve talked about here is that so much has become digital and in that environment, the processes have to be more streamlined in order to deliver on the product requirements. And this process is really incomplete without QA as it’s an integral part of product development, for instance. Can you tell us a little bit about why the CIOs of organizations that we’re talking to today must adhere to quality assurance, testing best practices and how that contributes to what Martha is talking about in their role to increase revenue through this innovation? 

Cigniti speaker: I think there are a few topics that Martha mentioned about and RPA is one of it, IoT is another one, then Artificial Intelligence, Machine Learning and newer initiatives are coming in the way of digital. And a great point about e-commerce taking up P&L role; it’s the key player right now. So the organizations, including retail and Pharma companies and manufacturers, everyone is looking at getting the products directly to their end-customers through various channels and with that, it brings in the complexity of how quickly can we get it to the market and how efficiently we can get into that. So there are a lot of aspects to it, one of them are you’re bringing in automation to accelerate IT lifecycle and go to market. The second one is consumer sentiment as many of them are getting it from the direct source now. Getting the feedback from various channels such as social media channels, you have YouTube and various other channels that they are providing as a feedback to the end customer. They are taking that as an input and then realizing all those consumer sentiment and coming up with an artificial intelligence to make sure that their future product address to their consumer segments. Testing or quality assurance takes all those inputs and provide those use cases or test cases to make sure that the end user requirement is met. So that’s one additional aspect of it.  

The third is about performance, performance testing or performance engineering associated to it. In the past, you wait for a product to go live, you go to the store or you take a lot of time to do that. In today’s world, you want to get everything faster. So you want to make sure that performance and performance engineering is addressed. If you address it, you can handle the volume, you can handle the digital consumers that are getting the product much faster than what they used to be. And with holiday seasons coming into that, a lot of those digital consoles are getting prepared and a lot of retailers are looking at digital as their primary revenue to bring in. In this aspect, the CIOs are looking at scaling up their applications and making sure that the performance testing, the quality assurance of the performance is met as well.  

And most important one is the security aspect of it. They want to make sure that their entire system including their infrastructure, network, applications, penetration, all of these are completely protected. That is the quality assurance priority for them. These are some of the areas that CIOs are mandating in their initiatives.  

And the last one is about the RPA, which Martha mentioned about. They want to have the RPA embedded into their operation and their business lifecycle. Everyone wants to have their bots to their end systems so that the consumers that are coming in listens to all those in an intuitive way so that they address the response much faster but with artificial intelligence into that. Automating that process and making sure the business process is verified and all the data is thoroughly vetted, all of this is a part of quality assurance. So in a nutshell, end-to-end right from their application requirements all the way towards the maintenance, post production, quality assurance play a major part in the CIO’s role in releasing their applications to their end customers. 

Logan: That’s very well said. Cigniti speaker, I really appreciate that summary.  

Martha, we talked a lot earlier about skill development within the teams and as you democratize IT throughout your organization, there’s skill development that needs to happen there, even outside the IT function. But recently, talking about skills, you mentioned in a recent article that corporate boards are really facing a shortage of tech expertise, even at the highest levels. Where do you think this immediate need for senior IT leaders has really emerged? I imagine you’ve kind of got your finger on the pulse of this as an executive recruiting firm for technology leaders, you’re able to see this trend emerge pretty quickly. What do you think are some of the biggest drivers to that? 

Martha: The subject of CIOs on boards is something that I’ve been writing about for a long time. In fact, in my first book I called it the ‘corporate board paradox’. How it is that technology can make or break a company and yet corporate boards so rarely appoint CIOs? What is going on there? And what I would say is today you see more CIOs on corporate boards and I’m not talking about serving on the boards of other companies or corporate board position, not attending your own board meetings, which, of course, CIOs do all the time. So you see more CIOs and corporate boards today, but really still not that many. And here’s my assessment of what is happening. Boards know they need technology expertise on their boards. They know that their customers are interacting with them digitally more than before. They know that their products are becoming IT based, whether it’s IoT or some other form of technology. They know their factories are becoming smart factories and they are very well aware that information security is a very important skill to have on the board. So you would think every single corporate board will go out and appoint a CIO, but they’re not doing that. What they tend to do is, we need somebody who is an expert in security so they appoint a CEO of a security products company instead of a CIO. Or they appoint a CEO of an IoT company instead of a CIO. And what’s the reason for that? It’s still a question mark for me, but I think one of the reasons that CIOs are still not important appointing boards as often as they should, sometimes in their own organizations, it might be due to performance or it might be due to positioning. They don’t see their own CIO as so strategic that they have a bias against putting somebody with that background on their board. That is one reason. Another is when you have a board, you want to put people on the board that maybe are customer of yours or a potential customer of yours, an important business partner of yours. So the tendency is you’ve only got a limited number of board seats so let’s fill that seat with as many different opportunities as we can. So maybe we can get a customer, maybe with the expertise we need, maybe we can get an important relationship. So it’s not that they don’t think technical expertise is important on their boards but they’re just not in in large numbers anyway, filling that technical expertise need with an actual CIO. In fact, I have a good friend who is in a board practice at a major consulting firm where she’s helping executives get board-ready. And she said what happens is when a CIO is appointed to a board, the board isn’t necessarily going out and saying, get us a CIO. They’re saying, “get us somebody who’s transformational and knows security and understands this particular part of the market” and sometimes that person happens to be a CIO who fills all those requirements. But you still don’t have today a steady stream of chairs of boards saying we’ve got an open seat and we need a CIO. Not just yet. 

Logan: That makes a lot of sense, Martha. As we round out the conversation today, Martha, as we mentioned, you are the author of multiple books. On that list, ‘Be the Business’ and ‘CIO Paradox’, I would be remiss in not asking a quick question or two to have you share what do you think are some of the most important lessons that you shared in both of those? Obviously, if listeners want to go deeper there, they can definitely find those. But just curious from your perspective, as we have a few minutes left here today, anything in those books that you think is especially timely right now, this year for CIOs or something that has changed that you would say is actually what’s most important and wasn’t even there at the time of writing those books. We’ve spent a lot talking about how things have changed and looking up to now. I want to round it out with kind of advice or your strategic input for IT leaders moving forward, either from the content of your books or something that’s changed recently that you think folks need to have in mind as they walk away from listening to this episode today. 

Martha: The CIOs are such an interesting professional population because the CFO, that role has been around for a very long time – really hundreds of years – and the CIO came on the scene like in the late 80s. So it’s a very young professional role. It doesn’t really have any professional degrees associated with it. I mean, you might get a master’s in computer science, you might get an MBA, but not really the way you see, for example, in finance or even H.R. And so it’s such a young professional role and it’s changing constantly. With every year that technology becomes more impactful to our lives, the CIO role changes a bit. So I think the power of the books is to allow CIOs to read stories of success and failure from their peer community because where I can’t think of a fictional community that gets more of its knowledge and expertise from one another, and so because they need it, because they’re on the bleeding edge, nobody’s done this before. So I think the books and not just mine, but any books about the CIO role offer peer advice.  

If I’m going to offer advice to the CIO community today, the whole CIO community, it is, “Continue in your pursuit to become one with the business.” Once you’ve got the business partner saying, throw it over the wall to IT, we’ll get it back, maybe we won’t, then you’re losing your ability to be effective. So the advice that I would say is, “Have a good organization of business relationship managers where each one faces off to a particular part of the business. Pursue the democratization of IT, so that it’s not just IT being the business, it’s letting the business be IT. Ensure that as you’re focusing on the talent development, AI, IoT and all these other technology areas, make sure you’re focusing on people who truly understand the business drivers of the company that you’re in.” 

So I guess the advice I would give is going back to something we talked about earlier is, when you get everybody to remote work, it’s only about leadership, but it’s also about operational technology. It doesn’t really require a huge amount about the business. But when you’re moving into analytics and digital products, you have to understand the business. If I’m a recruiter and I’m going to call you when you’re a CIO, I’m going to say, hey when you joined your last company, what was going on? You want to answer my question in the same way that the CEO would answer that question, not go straight to systems.  

I think that my overall advice, which I hate to say it is as old as the hills, is that, “for CIOs to be successful in this next economic period that we’re seem to be entering into, it’s going to be as close to the business, strategically, intellectually, and organizationally as you possibly can be, because this notion that IT is here and the business is there makes no sense. When IT is involved in every aspect of the business, why isn’t it the business?” So that’s the piece of advice. Through a variety of means, ensure that you are as embedded in what’s happening in your business as any other function. 

Logan: That’s so well said Martha, and I think there’s probably an entire additional podcast episode we could have with you, just breaking down how you make that organizational shift, as you mentioned, that’s kind of the rub there. Once you’ve kind of made that mental shift organizationally, there are a lot of rippling effects when you start to make that. For the interest of time though, today we’re going to round it out. I really appreciate you sharing so much valuable information and perspective, not only your years of experience working with CIOs, but the network that you’re plugged into that other IT leaders can kind of learn from that communal knowledge today by you being a guest on the show.  

Logan: Martha, same question to you. If listeners, either they are new on your radar or would like to go deeper with your books or some of the content, what’s the best way for them to learn more about your firm or stay in touch with you or follow along with some of the content that you’re sharing more digitally than in person these days, but what are some of those best avenues? 

Martha: If you go to hellersearch.com, you will find a sign up for the Heller Report, which is a weekly newsletter that goes out to twenty five thousand IT leaders. It contains my blog, but it also contains articles that CIOs have told us are important to them. Podcasts such as the one that we’re doing here today will promote some of the roles that we’re recruiting and if you sign up for that and you want to get in touch with me, just respond to that newsletter. I go through all of that email and you will hear back from me. 

Logan: I love the personal touch with your community there, Martha. So I highly encourage folks to connect with you on LinkedIn, follow you there, and check out the newsletter on your site. Thank you both so much for being guests today on the show. And as always, folks, thank you so much for listening. 

Martha: Thank you, Logan. It was a pleasure! 

Quality assurance is vital to the success of an organization’s digital transformation. Lack of control can quickly derail a company’s technological presence, costing thousands. At Cigniti, our resolution is to build a better world with better quality software. Renowned for the global thought leadership in the industry, we draw expertise from over a decade of test engineering experience across verticals. To learn how we do it, visit cigniti.com.   

You have been listening to QA talks. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening, until next time.