Logan
Welcome back to another episode of QA talks where we’re talking digital transformation and other hot trends with IT leaders today. My name is Logan Lyles was sweet fish media. I’m your host for today’s episode. Today I’m joined by two great speakers. The first is avec Ganguli, Director of DevOps and quality engineering at London stock exchange group on the show.

Avik
It’s a pleasure to have you honor to be here.

Logan
Absolutely excited to get your thoughts on digital transformation, specifically things going on in financial services, what the movement to the cloud has meant specifically for that industry. But before we dive into some questions for you, I want to introduce a repeat speaker on the podcast Nanda, Padma Raju, President at signi. President at cigniti technologies, obviously not that it is great to have you on the show again today. Welcome back, sir.

Nanda
Thank you, Logan. It’s good to be back on your show. Thank you look forward to the session. Absolutely. Well, avec,

Logan
I want to start with you. You know, I mentioned it a little bit there at the open as cloud accelerates the digital transformation specifically in the financial services industry, as it is obviously broadly across other industries, what would you say that has increasingly become a differentiator from the customer’s point of view? You know, at the same time, many industry applications are developed with on premise in mind. So how do you see them adapting to the cloud as well. So I’m going to hit you out of the gates with a two part.

Avik
Thank you.

I’m sure you’ve read what the past decade we have seen a massive amount of disruptive term transformation in the in the FinTech space, particularly large technology startups brewing up that are sort of trying to change the landscape in a very disruptive manner from the traditional financial services and fintech industries that we know of around the Wall Street and the global headquarters around the cities of the pioneers of the world. You know, we are facing a mode of consolidation. And that becomes particularly challenging when you have disruptive Tech’s going on an ever increasing expansion of their products and offerings. Some of the key differentiators for large to medium fintechs are around forcing monolithic to transformative microservices design pattern. Over the period of time, in the last three decades, the big fintechs financial services have accumulated a lot of tech debt by not up leveling their stack, because they played niche products in the marketplace. And now, those are being questioned. So cloud technologies and the emerging and governance around distributed systems scalability, particularly in the space of hybrid solutions are becoming more and more pronounced. And thought leaders are actually tasked to align and sort of recover from that key gap that has been created over the past three decades. A lot of scale partners have brought up in this space to sort of help facilitate some of these initiatives. So that’s another key differentiator is actually creating opportunities for entrepreneurs and tech innovators to actually service such big fintechs. I’m sure Nanda can attribute to that a lot because it’s kind of in the epicenter of it. And it has become a big market what what’s sort of becoming key differentiator is the public cloud providers are also increasingly innovative. And they’re, they’re sort of trying to target this marketplace and sort of get at it and get quick wins in early adopters to sort of buy in for this.

Logan
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I’ve I like what you called out there that, you know, niche providers may not have seen the need to innovate and to move to the cloud because kind of being insulated in a smaller niche. Okay, these bigger trends out there in the market at large aren’t necessarily going to affect us and they might not have affected them as early as possible. But those changes do come for everyone. As you alluded to avec Nanda in the cigniti team have worked with several financial services enterprises globally, in their digital transformation, so not I’d love to get you in involved here early in the conversation and see if you could share some instances of how this digital transformation has helped enterprises, especially in financial services, meet customer demands with all the changes that have been alluding to here.

Nanda
Sure, Logan, I’ll start with the fact that if you talk to 10 people out on the street, in the IT community about what digital transformation means to them, each one would give their own version, and nobody is wrong, right. So they have their own understanding of digital transformation. And in various in different contexts and circumstances, that would definitely mean different things for each of them. But I think it’s it’s, it’s important to have a common high level understanding of what digital transformation is, for most of the enterprises, at a very broad level, and then deep dive into two case studies, maybe one I’ll pick it up in the financial services segment. And one broadly in a segment that people will most of the listeners will try to understand correlate and, and would have experienced it firsthand, firsthand. So in just with the objective of bringing in that audience, and making them inclusive, I’ll also include one example of a non financial services enterprise that we worked on. So broadly, integration of digital technologies in all areas of business, resulting in a fundamental change on how businesses operate, and how they deliver value to the customers is what is at the core of digital transformation. And today, Gallup poll says that 75% of the enterprises around the world, both large, medium and small, are embarking on this digital transformation journey. So it’s, it’s, it’s no more a virtue, but it’s an imperative to stay competitive and continue to delight your own customers. If I take the example of Ryanair, right, so broadly, just from a statistical point of view, given the data that is there out in the public, a, an average revenue that they have generated from each seat is about 37 euros, most of you would have traveled in the low cost airline Ryanair, and would have experienced their high levels of efficiency, right. So they typically in 2019, on an average day will operated at about 96% occupancy. So even with that occupancy, the average yield is about 37 euros. And it is widely known in the industry circles, that 37 euros is way below the cost per seat for flying anywhere, even though you take into consideration that Ryanair flies to airports that are less populated to lower the costs uses the most efficient aircrafts and and flights to keep the cost low and and many other things that they do, right. But however, they’ve they’ve they’ve published, they’ve reported significant profits. And how is that possible when when the revenue per seat is significantly lower than the cost per seat? How did they generate profits? It’s, it’s predominant the bulk of the profits predominantly come from something called as ancillary revenue in the airline industry. What is this ancillary revenue before people, all of you who would have booked the flight immediately after booking your flight, you have an option of booking a car rental, or you booking a hotel service, or you do a priority check in or you do a seat selection and such like that. So all these other other things other than the core aspect of flying involves digital technologies that are playing, and the cost of delivering these is is nothing other than the pure investment in it. So it’s a nonlinear revenue generation. And that accounts sick, roughly about 40 to 44% of the revenue that Ryanair has reported comes from ancillary revenue that is significantly higher than most of the airlines in the around the globe, right. So for, for delivering and for getting this ancillary revenue, all that you need to do is is make it’s much more easier for a customer to go and embark and complete that other parts of the journey in addition to the flying, and since it’s a pastor, for example, if you if somebody books, a hotel through Ryanair, it normally gets integrated into the hotels.com. In the backend, nobody sees anything, but essentially it’s a pass through revenue and for Ryanair, the cost of delivering that as a service is nothing but the idea, as I said, just a couple of minutes ago, and similarly for a car rental service, right so you you you pretty much get where I’m trying to hurt us. So with the whole technology at play, you are able to generate profits for your shareholders and stakeholders, while keeping the cost of flying low for your customers. Which implies that the customers will keep coming back to you. And how is this entire thing possible through through exceptional experience, both on their app and also on their website. So some of them, some of you must have experienced an app called Ryanair bubble that stays on top of your mobile screen, one touch, you get a boarding pass. It’s convenient, a lot of innovation, innovative things to delight the customer is what is made possible to this whole digital transformation journey. So this is something that Ryanair has embarked much before most of the airlines around the world, and has really reap the benefits from that exercise. Now coming back to quickly coming back to the financial services segment. We’ve also been partnered with a leading challenger bank in the UK for the last seven years or so. And we’ve seen them embark and and question the status quo of the large legacy banks. And they’ve been very successful at it, right. So they don’t have the legacy they embark on a they have a white canvas, they start fresh. Having said that, because of various limitations and context, they initially started with the on prem core banking solution on prem hosting, then they moved from on prem to GCP. Simultaneously, they also moved from a core banking solution, which was historically, you term it as a legacy to something like a thought machine, which is a distributed ledger kind of solution, which is at the cutting core at gore and cutting edge, right. So you do move from on prem to cloud, you move from traditional core banking solution to a distributed ledger, core banking solution, all these things means many things to the customer. So one, the pace at which a customer is able to complete a transaction, the pace at which the applications are able to scale to fluctuating demand, and give an overall better experience meant that ATM banks own app rating both on App Store and I was both have significantly gone up by an order of magnitude with this whole adoption of cloud and also moving to a different technology, right? So so the technology holds a lot of promise logon. And, and it is, as I said, imperative for enterprises to adopt, embrace, and take the take the best advantage of the technology that

Logan

I absolutely love those stories down because we talk a lot about how imperative as you say it is for organizations to adopt these new technologies. But those stories really bring it home and show the difference that can actually happen when digital transformation happens within an organization of it, you know, as the pandemic hit the world with one wave after another, some of us felt like obviously, it was tough to keep up and there was really a dire need to update how business was done. And I see this tension between managing business as usual and innovating to to change because we have to end because as Nanda points out, there are parallels to not innovating there are also upsides to getting ahead and innovating in ways that can that can impact your customer and your customers customer. So I would love to ask you as financial services teams are planning to migrate to the cloud specifically, what do you think implementing that change is going to look like how do they implement that change and manage the business as usual?

Avik
Great question. Thank you. For that, as we know, it’s kind of ironical to say every crisis sort of comes with an opportunity. Being a leading market provider of analytics and data in the street for over three decades, we are we take pride in being a technology product business, right? We impact the major investment banks and hedge funds and empower them to run quantum analytics on fixed income and equity derivatives. And we built the Russell indexes that you know, sort of encapsulated the world in the world of you know, fixed income and equity and sort of the world of you know, multi asset capability. We are kind of the key player. Now, with the pandemic. We are historically an environment where we worked mostly within the office space because the cross functional collaboration was so much easier. Innovation is so much easier. And we had a direct connection every individual contributor and leaders within the business had direct relationship with clients because It’s a client focused business, right, we sell our products to the clients. It’s sort of, we sort of struggled at the beginning to sort of work from this remote operation, because we’re not just used to it. Unlike many organizations who has already promoted that, before, typical Wall Street, tech firms or FinTech firms have always been an inclusive office space driven culture. Now, what it allowed us to do is to look at our location strategy, look at our revenue synergies, and identify talents, as we learned to our climate, to this new way of working, we started looking around the world to see where we can find key talents to deliver key initiatives, not necessarily confining yourself to the space. So that’s the only thing that was good that came out of the pandemic. Unfortunately, there’s probably as probably, you know, nothing good comes out of a pandemic. But for us, we learned how to adapt and work in this environment where we can actually adopt talent from anywhere in the world, we have actually opened multiple development centers, in distributed geographical areas where we never had reached before, we were able to sort of bootstrap our research and delivery capabilities or model developments, which is kind of the key, and all the horizontal functions above it, the technology functions, product development, DevOps, quality engineering, we could sort of, you know, develop that talent around the world. And I think it’s working pretty well for us. But, in addition, now, operating business as usual, and innovation, it becomes very critical and irrelevant.

Avik
Because, you know, our analytics is being integrated into broader spectrum of industries, given the fact that we just talked about having people across the globe is now creating capital market opportunities in places where capital market has been relatively shallow. Right? Thereby, we had to sort of come up with new product ideas, all of a sudden, a US based market where you have specific data centers to cater to us clients now needs a distributed system for you to cater to clients running calculations on your platform across the globe. So need for scale of storage need for scale of, you know, resiliency, reliability, availability, and consistency, all of that factors, the basic design principles of building products comes into the play, and historical monolithic products were not designed for that it was low, latent and efficient. But now you have to distribute it across the world. And that’s why cloud becomes so relevant, that you don’t have to reinvent the wheel and spin up multiple data centers, you can actually go to public cloud providers and have them do that work for you. All you have to do is sort of align your strategy, eliminate your dependency graphs, you know, work with bottom up approach where your thought leaders are buying in to that idea, you are driving change at a very fast speed. And then you partner with scale partners where they can come and share their expertise to really help you accelerate your business we actually had, we had a p&l driven business, we actually had 33% additional CPU revenue coming out this year, just because we were able to sort of get to that marketplaces where we could not call before. So it’s it’s yeah, it’s just so imperative. It’s to some degree, you know, bring relevance to what the industry trends are, we are historically adapt oriented business. And now we are adding complexities around breadth oriented problems, in addition to the depth oriented problems that we already have solved for the market. It’s just fascinating how a single event can sort of transform your way of thinking and creating opportunities for investors around the world to be a part of it.

Logan
Sure, as it’s fascinating, to say the least, I think I like the way you put that there. Now that you know, avec was speaking a little bit about how these changes have some new opportunities and some new challenges that we have to deal with. And we’ve been talking about, you know, the increase in financial financial transactions happening online and on cloud based systems. Can you talk a little bit about the aspect of performance and how that’s addressed? While enterprises are migrating to the cloud?

Nanda
Sure, logan I love the way in which avec has comprehensively given a response to your question. So it’s It covers various aspects, right. So, in terms of resilience in terms of C, traditionally, performance testing is a is a subject that people generally relate to either a load testing or a stress testing or some aspects of testing, but it encompasses much more right. So, in terms of resilience in terms of availability in terms of there are many, many aspects of an application in the non non non functional arena, that you need to ensure that, to provide to provide that, in that unique customer experience that you want to you want to give it to your customers. non functional testing, both from a performance and also from a security testing play a very important role. Broadly speaking, when you compare with an application that’s on on prem to an application that’s hosted on cloud cloud, because of the because of the billions of dollars of investment that has gone in from all the major providers, whether it is AWS, or GCP, or Azure, or or anybody else, predominantly on an average, an application that’s on Cloud. By Design. It’s designed to scale right. So you you’re able to scale based on demand, there are certain aspects of performance testing, that are inherently taken care, by the, by the, by by the cloud technologies, or the aspects that make cloud what it is today, right. So for example, just to elaborate a little bit further, if traditionally, for SharePoint application, simplistically, it take a simplistic application, like a SharePoint application is hosted on an on prem data center, then you would normally carry out all the performance testings and then fine tune the implementation and then get to work based on whatever SLA is that you’ve agreed internally as as a project and then sign off before going live, right. So same SharePoint when you when you take a SAS approach that’s hosted, obviously, on Cloud for by the provider, then to load test, that would have no meaning at all. Because you’re in fact, the the Microsoft guidance and the guidance from the publishers is clearly that there is no point in doing load testing, because the application is designed to scale. And because it is scaling, it has access to almost infinite and unlimited resources. So the response times are anything else that you’re trying to capture, by trying to put load or, or anything stress on the system, you you will get results. But there is no specific interpretation of that result. So that that results or data will really make no meaning. Because in a different set of environment, it might behave completely differently. So some aspects of performance testing will almost become irrelevant, particularly if the applications are on the SAS model. Right. So the rest of it. So obviously, moving to the cloud applications have a choice, Logan, so there is a six hour model that is a four hour model quickly, they can either pick up the hosting route replatforming, Route, refactoring, repurchase, retiring some applications and retaining some obligations or retaining because some of the compliance related things that are there would mean that you need to retain obligations, even when you do the job migration. So each of these paths dictates a different set of testing both for functional and non functional. So for performance, we certainly accidentally leveraged a lot of in house intellectual property that we’ve brought to the table. So we have something called Blue Swan, where the various elements including a AI ml based system that can then help you incorporate a continuous testing into into your delivery pipeline, which means that rather than waiting for something to happen, testing happens continuously throughout the throughout the lifecycle of application development. And you’re able to compare contrast, make improvements release on release, visually, visually, the the graphics and the dashboards there, show those improvements. And we are also able to compare and see where we are standing against the signup benefits of moving to cloud, right. So ultimately, when you move to cloud, you sign up for some benefits, you sign up for some SLA s with these cloud providers. So it is imperative that as a testing partner for our enterprise customers, we ensure that all those objectives are met and application inherently whether it is refactored or re architected is able to perform better than what it was performing when it was on track.

Logan
Absolutely, that is really a great rundown and it dovetails really nicely into my next question for avec, you know, as enterprises are trying to harness the power speed flexibility of the cloud, there are definitely some challenges to navigate Nanda just shared a good bit about how to manage performance when migrating to the cloud. But avec I would love to ask you specifically as enterprises are going through that my migration, what do you think are some of the challenges that might be overlooked? Some of those ones that might have a big impact, but usually aren’t planned for as well, during the migration period? Can you?

Avik
Oh, yes, thank you so much for leaving, for any digital transformation, especially in a rigid structure, or structure that was not built for this level of flexibility. It’s challenging, it’s never seamless. It’s not shifting left over. A lot of early adopters and leadership, when they talk about this cloud transformation, they talk about, you know, the operating costs of, you know, migrating into the cloud, the parallel paradigm of managing both data centers on prem, and sort of killing through the transformation and migration work. What a lot of people being head of DevOps I see and they don’t usually talk about and needs to be brought up is, you know, you’re suddenly moving from a paradigm of doing things manually into a full lifecycle of infrastructures code. When you build a new product, a lot of design, thought process goes into play a lot of negotiations in terms of trade offs are made, right? Historically managed development teams. So I know that a lot of crafts craftsmanship is very relevant. But when it comes to building infrastructures code, and you know, sort of treating that as a product itself, or a collection of product, you seem to minimize that you focus a lot more on the technologies you’re gonna use, how relevant they are to your business, how do you optimize public cloud providers sort of to simulate your on prem? On Prem processes and strategics. You sort of end up undermining ISC is is infrastructures code, which is, you know, the whole lifecycle of orchestrating your parameters that are going to drive the build and deployment pipelines for you? How are you going to design that segregation, where you have clear ownership where system engineering team has a specific finite space to sort of play with their fine tune parameters, development as the change, you know, as the interchange, they have a good handle on sort of managing that change throughout the pipeline orchestration process. And then quality engineers and of course, everything else that happens, they also have a good grasp of, you know, segregate segregated, microservices, like infrastructures code, I don’t see a lot of organizations talking about it, they adopt tools, tools that sort of get you to the first door, there are fun and Sybil, you have tons of plethora of tools. They talk a lot about their strategies of deployment, like, you know, on prem to easytouse, versus say, containers, and then creating, you know, Docker images and writing good Docker orchestration. But infrastructures code is also a piece of craftsmanship. That seems to be a bit, you know, undervalued at the beginning, and it kind of comes back and bites you hard at the back. Because, you know, you then now have a huge amount of code to manage, and you want change to be resilient, you want change to be frequent, you want change to be well tested. So that there’s that, you know, quality of the change management process itself, and needs to be paid a little bit extra attention. You know, I’ve seen the, you know, most conferences, and most thought leaders talk a lot about the technology itself. They don’t talk about the idea of getting there. They’re the tech organizations that invest so, so much on that, you know, and we don’t historically do that, you know, the, the Google’s SRE or the engineering productivity organization has gifted us with so much tools that change the way they actually manage change. So we need to as financial services, need to take that as a precursor and sort of align. And this is low level stuff, but this low level stuff actually cascades down benefit in the long run. So that’s one challenge. Learning Curve. You know, it’s completely different from managing resources on prem. You’re not so close to metals anymore. You are allowing God to drive your metals and synergies. So that’s, that’s critical, especially in the world where quantitative analysts or quants, researchers, they have a very, very limited expertise in this field. And they’re sort of the consumer and so they need to be brought up to speed. And and businesses and technologists need to be aligned and speak each other’s language because they have to understand the gravity of this and sort of make the investments strategically to create that synergy in opposed to quant versus development versus DevOps silos. So organizational silos, cross functional collaborations. Those are becoming more of a, you know, I would say the soft challenges, the hard challenges is actually doing it right in terms of implementation and scaling it right.

Logan
That’s that’s very well said. Not I want to kick it over to you. You know, we’ve talked about measuring performance, we’ve talked about it, as I’ve just said, identifying some of the hidden challenges in migrating to the cloud. Achieving continuous validation through cloud migration, is really going to rely on certain Brest best practices and methodologies. Can you talk a little bit about how these are identified and rolled out, especially in large global organizations?

Nanda
Sure, sure, logon whether it is a vix organization, like the London Stock Exchange group, or most of the financial services firms, I think data and the amount of data plays a crucial role. Right. So that that’s one thing that we need to keep in mind when we when we are serving financial services organization and then having so much of data. And then when a organization embarks on, on a cloud migration. In addition to the application, level of refactoring and complexity and testing and assurance that needs, we also need to ensure that the data quality when the migration happens, is in tune, or fitting the overall plan that we have in the initial initial setup when we start migrating. Right. So coming back to your your specific question in terms of what are the some of the best practices that we have seen? Help, right. So what we mean it’s again, a McKinsey statistic, if you go and read a McKinsey report, it says that only 14% of the enterprises that have embarked on digital transformation have seen sustained, and and the quantum leaps have benefits that they had signed up for, When embarking on this digital transformation, why is the percentage of success so called success is so low. Because now digital transformation is a buzzword that every CIO and CEO has has has started speaking about in their earnings calls in their, in their interactions with various stakeholders. But the challenge as AVI getting pointed out in one of his earlier points, is is multi fold technology, the advances in technology are enabling us to do a lot more like like the Google SRE. I mean, the avec pointed out very good aspect of Google providing so many tools and so, so much of code out there to leverage and take things forward. Other organizations as well, right, so whether you call the you take examples of Netflix, Facebook, all these big corporations have have pioneered a lot of concepts that are now becoming benchmark for other enterprises to follow. The fact that Amazon is able to release code almost in seconds is a clear testimonial to the continuous testing framework and seamless continuous delivery pipeline that they have perfected over the years right. So with all these things are the the outcomes that we are able to see from a distance but what goes in to empower and make this a possibility is is a thorough process of of setting up a automated testing suit. That is that is not only static in today’s world logon it might appear to be far reaching but it is not. The fact that today’s automated scripts have I mean you can incorporate a lot of AI and ML into it, and make them self healing to some extent, right. So some changes, they’re able to understand and modify the code themselves are able to circumnavigate the change. So without any change to the underlying automation, automated script, you are still able to validate and perform that test. So, so the level of automation, it’s no longer the traditional way of validating it for a specific thing. So ultimately, your core objectives need to be met and need to be met incrementally. Because now the release velocity is so high and so frequent, that you can’t obviously afford to refactor and refactor or modify all the automation. Some of them you need to based on change requirements and all but but if you are able to incorporate some intelligence into the scripts, to be able to navigate and change the code, or change the way they navigate through the lifecycle of the test case, intelligently, then you’re able to solve it biggest problem of assurance of testing that we have, we’ve seen in the past, right? Typically about, say 3040 50% of the test cases failed, not because the test, the underlying application under test is not meeting the requirements. But because there are some components that have changed in the next release of the application that had no bearing or no correlation or no dependency or on the on the test automation code that has been written, right. So these are the things that, that that that Viet cigniti have perfected.

And we’ve we’ve constantly come back with the the platform view of trying to leverage code leverage frameworks that we’ve developed for one enterprise without infringing upon any anything specific to that particular enterprise, we then deploy the code or the or the or the framework to benefit the next customer. So that way, we are able to bring to the table, a jumpstart kit for our enterprises, to not only cover the functional validation, integration, testing, security, scalability, performance, and and data validation as well. When when they embark on this cloud migration journey. So as most of the people know that one of the largest migration that we have seen in the FinTech space recently, is the HSBC migration to

Logan
GCP. Yeah, absolutely. That’s a great example to point out and just reiterate what you shared there, Nanda, I think we’re rounding out our time together today. And I want to I want to close it out with a question for you going off of something that Nanda touched on there. And that’s the learning curve. When it comes to cloud migration. We’ve talked about a number of opportunities and challenges. So I think it would be appropriate to round out the conversation today, talking about what have been some of the learnings in terms of smoothing that learning curve for leaders in the financial services space that are preparing for and going through cloud migration to make sure that their organizations, their teams, and their customers are able to?

Avik
That’s a great question and very sensitive question. You know, I’ll just draw the picture in this way, you have on prem resources, doing a lot of release engineering, and, you know, managing on prem resources, suddenly, one fine morning, you get a wake up call that Well, I got to overnight transform all my release engineers into a DevOps engineer. And once they go past the DevOps, where automation becomes a first class citizen, you sort of mature and then you become a KPI driven a mature SRE organization. You know, these are not just jargons, they are a stages of maturity level that organizations obtain over a period of time, hopefully, with a relatively shorter span of time with the technologies that we have out there. It’s a very steep learning curve. It’s very gratifying, at the same time, very challenging, intimidating, and, and, and I would say, as his career evolving, your make and Maven build processes become, you know, so much fluid that there is no more dependencies into diluted and this point I didn’t touch upon this earlier, continuous testing becomes more and more relevant every stage of the way. And putting this burden into the lifecycle of early software development lifecycle becomes more relevant, so that developers can manage change can own quality quality is not owned by an individual group, but the whole organization all the way from product Design, Development, test delivery and relationship management for a FinTech business, because you have products going out to the people, for banking services in this building products for your internal clients, right and facilitating your internal operations still can adapt to that. It’s, it’s a cultural transformation needs buy in, you need thought leaders, you need to sort of retain and hire some talents, you need to sometimes partner with scale partners, such as dignity and other scale partners that are available out there in the in the transformation process. And then creating the opportunity as leaders, you know, giving people time to climate and adapt to it, and giving them materials to learn. And, and then then then, you know, developing them along the way, I think there is no shortcut to this, you know, you got to hire gear on talent, you got to pay to run salaries, you got to get buy in farm production business, that this is important, this is going to incrementally define operational efficacy into your SDLC or development process. You need buy in from your people that are going to be actually be part of this. And that it’s new way of doing things, this new way of transforming. It requires a lot of dedication and commitment to sort of drive this there is no real shortcut besides all the ones that Nanda and I just listed on.

Logan
There, yes, there are best practices, there are no real shortcuts. I love the way that you said that I think that’s probably, you know, the most quotable moment of the show coming right at the end. So I love that you save the best for last. I think if someone listening to this would like to reach out to you or stay connected with you and your team to learn more from some of the great knowledge that you’ve shared with us, what would be the open and vocal in my LinkedIn can definitely be reached out. And, you know, my LinkedIn profile is pretty visible. More than happy to be part of that I think the least we can do is give back our knowledge and expertise. And oftentimes, and not often I would say always is bi directional, you always learn something. Every day, when I talk to my team members, I talk to people that are, you know, you know, working at the bottom of the food chain all the way up, there’s always something you can take away and learn. So there’s nothing more humbling and gratifying. And then and then connecting to this finite space of community that we have here across the globe. So very open to that.

Absolutely, they’re great, great community of IT leaders, I know that listen to the show, and those conversations are on LinkedIn as well. And it reminds me of a great saying, I don’t know where this comes from, but to teach something is to learn it twice. And I think that is very much in line with what you just shared there avec that when you share your knowledge, you reinforce some of your learnings, and you learn from those that you are quote unquote, teaching at the same time. Now, I imagine, as you’ve mentioned before on the podcast, if someone wants to reach out to you or members of your team at Cigna at LinkedIn is probably the best place for them to do that. Am I still right there?

Nanda
Absolutely, Logan? Absolutely. I think LinkedIn is a platform where we all collaborate. And even though we can I personally connected on both personal as well as business emails, but we still usually platform. You know why it’s such easy, but they can also reach out to me on on drop an email nundah@cigniti.com. But I would definitely prefer LinkedIn as a platform to keep in touch with people and be correctly put it listening to those questions and learning from them, I think is equally important for all of us. And that’s how we all grew in our professional careers. And giving back to the the professional group in whatever little manner that we can be all are doing today, I think is a positive step. It’s very important for all of us to continue to spend some time at least the commute time, or other time listening to podcasts. I’d say this is one of the easier way to gain knowledge, knowledge that is relevant to your professional practice knowledge that will help you stay focused, stay relevant, and stay up to date on matters such as this. Yes, absolutely.

Logan
So if you do want to continue the conversation if you’ve enjoyed the experience and knowledge that both guests have shared today, definitely reach out to them on LinkedIn. You can also go to cigniti.com and find previous episodes of QA talks and some blog posts If you’re in more of a reading mood, especially as the holidays approach, as always, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today. If you’re listening to this, thank you so much for spending some time with us here on QA talks with dignity. We’ll see you next time.